Listening to Nats Chat today, I was thinking, "I wonder if the front office / coaching staff is prioritizing relievers pitching multiple innings." In an ideal scenario, you have guys like Alvarez, Lord, Cornelio perhaps, who can go 2-3 innings (1 time through the order) and guys like Beeter who are the shutdown, 1-2-3 guys. The bulk guys can pitch every 3-4 days while the one-inning guys can go back-to-back if necessary. Outs are outs. It's just a matter of piecing the puzzle together to get 27 (or 24 at home).
I really like the idea in theory. I've mentioned it before that I wouldn't be mad, per se, if Susana, Sykora, or Clemmey end up as multi-inning relievers. If they can get 6-9 outs every 3-4 days and stay healthy, that's somewhat close in value to getting 15-18 outs every 4 days.
Interesting idea, certainly worthy of further study. It would be nice if the Nats had a few more relatively dependable relievers to make the idea less necessary.
I don't think it's a matter of necessity. In my opinion it's a philosophical shift away from specialization and defined roles.
If a starter gives you 6 innings and a bulk reliever gives you 3, you've saved 7 relievers from having to pitch that day. In theory it makes sense. I'm practice, it's difficult because not everything goes according to the ideal plan.
I've noticed that the Nationals' openers have often pitched more than the one inning the typical opener has over the last 10ish years that the concept has become popular. It's basically the same approach I just mentioned but in reverse. The first guy goes through the order once. The second guy goes as long as possible.
I like your logic. I like the idea of experimenting with paired starters too. That is, you have two guys stretched out to pitch as starters on regular rest on the same day. The first guy goes through the lineup twice (if possible) and then the second guy comes in and goes as long as he can. It avoids having to convert guys from being starters to the chaotic schedule of a reliever while still covering a lot of innings.
The Nats, like most organizations, keep the best pitching prospects as starters in the minors for as long as possible, but then have to deal with an often difficult conversion process.
I could see a Nats staff with 7 pitchers who are “starters” who pitch on 5 days rest and only 5 traditional relievers.
I think the evidence will show that “non-ace” pitchers are at their least effective the third time through the order. This addresses that problem.
Exactly. It already earned Trevor Williams millions of dollars. Pitchers who aren't top tier (or even second tier) could really benefit from a strategy like this.
I strongly disliked the DH in the NL at first. I've come around to it. It's not worse; it's just different. And it opens job opportunities for players who might otherwise never get the opportunity. Similarly, this gives fringe pitchers the ability to have success in the big leagues and add value for their team.
Isn't the pitching staff capable of studying the pitcher's performance and noticing when he is tired ? It was okay to send Cole Henry out for a second inning, especially with the low pitch count the first inning. Pitching staff has to watch him.
Will some team ever experiment with training their pitchers to throw 92-93 instead of 95-97 mph fastballs? It seems to me that would be a way to get more innings from each pitcher, especially if they mix in other pitches on occasion. It hasn't been that long since 92-93 was more common. I also have a hard time believing that two innings is too much to ask of these guys. They are professional athletes, superbly trained and condition.
I used to wonder the same (lower velocity, more pitches), but it would be so counter culture- I don’t think most pitchers would have the control and variety to get guys out. They in high school are already all about heat and stuff, that continues on in college and pros.
Alright! LET'S GO NATS!! 10 - 12+ runs and a solid outing from Alvarez and whoever follows him on the mound. DINGERS ARE DELIGHTFUL!! GET A CURLY w TONIGHT AND TAKE THE SERIES!!
I respect Butera admitting that they need to do a better job of setting the relievers up for success. Hallmark of a true leader is being willing to accept blame when warranted.
Now can you imagine what Davey would have said instead? 🫠
Nats leading Dodgers in runs scored by 6, 497 to 491. ICYMI, Dodgers 8-7 win in 11 over Rockies last night almost as wild as Nats Curly W. Dodgers had a 6-1 lead which Rockies whittled and in top 9 got a two out, two run bases loaded double for the tie — and at first looked like they took the lead but a very close play at home on a challenge resulted instead in the third out on a great tag by Dalton Rushing — who rather aptly drove in the winner bottom 11. I’m sure it is more than fair to say Nats win was every bit as dramatic and no question more meaningful — and also shows on any given night in baseball….
The transparency from the staff is remarkable. You may not agree with all of their moves, but it’s the obvious that they always have a plan, work hard, and communicate with the players at all times. I never recall seeing any franchise in any sport change so much in such a short period of time. But then, we fault them for not having had time to build a perfect roster?
That's the funny?, ironic? thing. If the Nats were living down to preseason expectations of being on pace for, say, a 65 win season - many fans would have much more patience by realizing how much had to be fixed. Now with the team playing much better than anticipated, there's less patience while having a lesser number of things that need to be fixed.
I said to a friend at spring training " These new young guys in the front office are supremely confident in their ability to get "another gear" out of the players we have. We have no choice but to hope they're right. Of course, they're not so confident that they're willing to bet their careers on telling the owners to start spending now."
We should call the flight from Rochester to DC the "Rochester Meatwagon." I suppose the theory is that a 12-man relief staff is better than an 8-man relief staff. I'm not sure it works in practice.
If anyone else is curious (like I was), Vivas has an OPS 100 points higher than Nunez’s against righties, even though they are very close overall in both OPS and average
Of course, even the most marginal MLB pitcher is unbelievably talented. I never like using insulting names for pitchers (or hitters) who aren’t quite up to the super-high level of MLB.
You know, this is a little surprising to me. All offseason and during Spring Training we’ve heard story after story of the franchise making sure that messaging was consistent at every level, that training was consistent, etc. So now we have an MLB team that needs relievers to throw multiple innings, and little or no experience for minor league pitchers throwing 2 or 3 innings? The new regime (deservedly) scored points by revamping organization-wide training and messaging, but on this one crucial issue, they have apparently not had the minors support what the MLB club needed. I’d put the blame on Toboni (or Butera, if he didn’t make his strategy and needs clear).
Props to Butera for being accountable. It is surprising to hear that the lines of communication between the farm system and big club did not include sharing workload information of the pitchers. It sounds like that is being corrected. Yes, great transparency from the organization as a whole.
It is incongruent with almost every other thing they have done. Since many of us here have been seeing it happen, a little hard to believe but I accept the takeaway…
Listening to Nats Chat today, I was thinking, "I wonder if the front office / coaching staff is prioritizing relievers pitching multiple innings." In an ideal scenario, you have guys like Alvarez, Lord, Cornelio perhaps, who can go 2-3 innings (1 time through the order) and guys like Beeter who are the shutdown, 1-2-3 guys. The bulk guys can pitch every 3-4 days while the one-inning guys can go back-to-back if necessary. Outs are outs. It's just a matter of piecing the puzzle together to get 27 (or 24 at home).
I really like the idea in theory. I've mentioned it before that I wouldn't be mad, per se, if Susana, Sykora, or Clemmey end up as multi-inning relievers. If they can get 6-9 outs every 3-4 days and stay healthy, that's somewhat close in value to getting 15-18 outs every 4 days.
Interesting idea, certainly worthy of further study. It would be nice if the Nats had a few more relatively dependable relievers to make the idea less necessary.
I don't think it's a matter of necessity. In my opinion it's a philosophical shift away from specialization and defined roles.
If a starter gives you 6 innings and a bulk reliever gives you 3, you've saved 7 relievers from having to pitch that day. In theory it makes sense. I'm practice, it's difficult because not everything goes according to the ideal plan.
I've noticed that the Nationals' openers have often pitched more than the one inning the typical opener has over the last 10ish years that the concept has become popular. It's basically the same approach I just mentioned but in reverse. The first guy goes through the order once. The second guy goes as long as possible.
I like your logic. I like the idea of experimenting with paired starters too. That is, you have two guys stretched out to pitch as starters on regular rest on the same day. The first guy goes through the lineup twice (if possible) and then the second guy comes in and goes as long as he can. It avoids having to convert guys from being starters to the chaotic schedule of a reliever while still covering a lot of innings.
The Nats, like most organizations, keep the best pitching prospects as starters in the minors for as long as possible, but then have to deal with an often difficult conversion process.
I could see a Nats staff with 7 pitchers who are “starters” who pitch on 5 days rest and only 5 traditional relievers.
I think the evidence will show that “non-ace” pitchers are at their least effective the third time through the order. This addresses that problem.
Exactly. It already earned Trevor Williams millions of dollars. Pitchers who aren't top tier (or even second tier) could really benefit from a strategy like this.
I strongly disliked the DH in the NL at first. I've come around to it. It's not worse; it's just different. And it opens job opportunities for players who might otherwise never get the opportunity. Similarly, this gives fringe pitchers the ability to have success in the big leagues and add value for their team.
"... or 24 at home"
Hmm, could that be the problem--that the relievers don't know that it always requires 27 outs to get a win in a 9-inning game? 😉
Yeah, I messed that up. Hah.
Isn't the pitching staff capable of studying the pitcher's performance and noticing when he is tired ? It was okay to send Cole Henry out for a second inning, especially with the low pitch count the first inning. Pitching staff has to watch him.
Sparky Lyle, where are you when we need you!?
Will some team ever experiment with training their pitchers to throw 92-93 instead of 95-97 mph fastballs? It seems to me that would be a way to get more innings from each pitcher, especially if they mix in other pitches on occasion. It hasn't been that long since 92-93 was more common. I also have a hard time believing that two innings is too much to ask of these guys. They are professional athletes, superbly trained and condition.
I used to wonder the same (lower velocity, more pitches), but it would be so counter culture- I don’t think most pitchers would have the control and variety to get guys out. They in high school are already all about heat and stuff, that continues on in college and pros.
Alright! LET'S GO NATS!! 10 - 12+ runs and a solid outing from Alvarez and whoever follows him on the mound. DINGERS ARE DELIGHTFUL!! GET A CURLY w TONIGHT AND TAKE THE SERIES!!
I’m seeing some run inflation happening in yer asks there GLH
No inflation! Escalation in run support for the pitchers!
Hah:))
I respect Butera admitting that they need to do a better job of setting the relievers up for success. Hallmark of a true leader is being willing to accept blame when warranted.
Now can you imagine what Davey would have said instead? 🫠
“I loved the way the boys battled.”
“The boys went 0-1 today”
💀💀💀
Nats leading Dodgers in runs scored by 6, 497 to 491. ICYMI, Dodgers 8-7 win in 11 over Rockies last night almost as wild as Nats Curly W. Dodgers had a 6-1 lead which Rockies whittled and in top 9 got a two out, two run bases loaded double for the tie — and at first looked like they took the lead but a very close play at home on a challenge resulted instead in the third out on a great tag by Dalton Rushing — who rather aptly drove in the winner bottom 11. I’m sure it is more than fair to say Nats win was every bit as dramatic and no question more meaningful — and also shows on any given night in baseball….
The transparency from the staff is remarkable. You may not agree with all of their moves, but it’s the obvious that they always have a plan, work hard, and communicate with the players at all times. I never recall seeing any franchise in any sport change so much in such a short period of time. But then, we fault them for not having had time to build a perfect roster?
That's the funny?, ironic? thing. If the Nats were living down to preseason expectations of being on pace for, say, a 65 win season - many fans would have much more patience by realizing how much had to be fixed. Now with the team playing much better than anticipated, there's less patience while having a lesser number of things that need to be fixed.
Agreed 100%.
I said to a friend at spring training " These new young guys in the front office are supremely confident in their ability to get "another gear" out of the players we have. We have no choice but to hope they're right. Of course, they're not so confident that they're willing to bet their careers on telling the owners to start spending now."
We should call the flight from Rochester to DC the "Rochester Meatwagon." I suppose the theory is that a 12-man relief staff is better than an 8-man relief staff. I'm not sure it works in practice.
If anyone else is curious (like I was), Vivas has an OPS 100 points higher than Nunez’s against righties, even though they are very close overall in both OPS and average
Meatball Alvarez and the Curly Ws is the name of my The-National-but-polka cover band
Meatball? That's not nice.🙂 At least he's not Littell or Mikolas.
FYI, Alvarez leads all Nats pitchers in strikeout %.
What’s a better band name? I’m open to suggestions
Of course, even the most marginal MLB pitcher is unbelievably talented. I never like using insulting names for pitchers (or hitters) who aren’t quite up to the super-high level of MLB.
Fair enough - appreciate the feedback
You know, this is a little surprising to me. All offseason and during Spring Training we’ve heard story after story of the franchise making sure that messaging was consistent at every level, that training was consistent, etc. So now we have an MLB team that needs relievers to throw multiple innings, and little or no experience for minor league pitchers throwing 2 or 3 innings? The new regime (deservedly) scored points by revamping organization-wide training and messaging, but on this one crucial issue, they have apparently not had the minors support what the MLB club needed. I’d put the blame on Toboni (or Butera, if he didn’t make his strategy and needs clear).
Good one!
Who knew there were going to be all these winnable games and that the starters were rarely going to be around for past the 5th
The night does belong to Michelob ⚾️🙋🏼♀️
Oops, I always thought it belonged to Lowenbrau.
DelmarvaNatitude, maybe it does, maybe it does. Either way, drink up 🍻🍻⚾️🙋🏼♀️
Props to Butera for being accountable. It is surprising to hear that the lines of communication between the farm system and big club did not include sharing workload information of the pitchers. It sounds like that is being corrected. Yes, great transparency from the organization as a whole.
It is incongruent with almost every other thing they have done. Since many of us here have been seeing it happen, a little hard to believe but I accept the takeaway…
And we're underway on a sweaty, 82-degree Tuesday evening.
Love to see 3 groundouts by Alvarez to start the game. NOW TIME FOR THE BIG O!!