Josiah Gray's long path back to the majors hit a major roadblock this evening when the Nationals recalled him from Triple-A and placed him on the injured list
Its kind of a misnomer. A lot of people like to say its the precursor to a UCL tear diagnosis. There really isn't any correlation between the two other than they both are often felt in the forearm and the former is sometimes a misdiagnosis of the later if there isn't any sign of a tear on the MRI. The flexor mass is a group of muscle strands that go all the way down to the wrist. If you hold your hand palm up and move your fingers, you can see them contract in the forearm. They are not attached directly to the UCL. They can be aggravated by throwing fatigue or by gripping the ball too hard. Like a pulled hamstring, the only treatment is rest.
The Scherzer-Turner trade is turning into a historic debacle. Two hall of fame talents for 4 players who may all be washed from the league within 5 years (Keibert on the clock)
A good reminder that for many reasons, there is no such thing as a pitching prospect.
They were both were very highly rated players. No one knows what the future holds. Turner was leaving anyways, and even the $$$$$ Dodgers let him walk.
Turner was under team control until the end of the following season. You’re supposed to get strong prospects in such circumstances, especially with Scherzer part of the deal.
In general I feel the team blew a possible opportunity to extend Turner before Lindor’s big contract reset the going rate for top shortstops. Turner didn’t have Boris as his agent. Whether this was on Rizzo or the Lerners is unclear, or maybe they were trying to figure out what to about Harper and Rendon first, but the thing is they didn’t really try (according to Turner). It is one of my biggest disappointments with the organization.
Harper left in 2018 because he did not want deferred money from Ted. With the money they saved on Harper, the Nats were able to sign Patrick Corbin and Adam Eaton. Without those two, the Nats don't win the WS Championship. Rendon was not resigned because the Nats decided they could not resign him and Strasburg. It didn't work out for either team, which always stinks, but without hindsight, I would have done the same thing. Rendon wanted out of DC and go to the West Coast. Two and a half years after Harper left, Turner was traded. They did not agree with Turner on his value (neither did the Dodgers). The Nats did not just want to let him walk, so he was traded at the trade deadline in 2021 before he became a free agent at the end of 2022. He only had one full season left before hitting free agency.
None of that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a blunder not to at least make a serious effort to extend Turner when it was clear early on that he was an extraordinary player. It could have been a more affordable contract back then. What decision the Dodgers made later, after the cost was much higher, is irrelevant. Btw, he still is impressive as an older player.
They did get the Dodgers #1 and #2 prospects for 2 months of Scherzer and Trea. That’s pretty good. Unfortunately it hasn’t worked out. But hindsight is 20/20. I agree 100% they missed the boat by not signing Trea before Lindor reset the SS market.
GMs of course are ultimately judged on results, but process is what matters. Most prospects don't pan out. Players get injured. It doesn't mean the moves were bad moves.
I agree with you that process is what matters, but the fact is that the player development regime in place in the Rizzo era failed to turn these highly regarded prospects into even modestly productive players. That is an unequivocal failure of process.
Neither player LA got stayed long with them, which is probably why the return was tepid. Sadly, the performance (Ruiz) and health (Gray) has been far less than most in baseball thought it would be.
I think it’s a failure of evaluation and bad luck more than a poor process - that said, the player development process of Rizzo’s time was extremely poor.
Not at all. MLB teams manipulate the IL all the time to retain optionality. I'm just asking if this is a new, significant injury or a "phantom IL" situation. Until we get new quotes on this, it's an open question.
What? You think they would ramp him up during spring training then shut him down for at least two months and then have him spend another two months getting back to throw the final month of a season. That's worthy of Seeburg's conspiracy nuttiness. You do have to submit documentation to MLB for injuries not to mention Gray would have to be an idiot to go along with this plan.
No conspiracy. Just asking reasonable questions that are unanswered until we get more quotes on this from management/Josiah, which I hope mark will report on.
I think we need to give Toboni and crew the benefit of the doubt for now. Reasonable suspicion and skepticism is ok, accusations devoid of evidence are a little less ok for me.
I hope is injury isn’t serious, because the other side of this coin is that it is worse than what we’ve been told and his career may be in jeopardy. But’s that’s just unhealthy speculation on my part right now.
Overall, I think I need to reserve judgment until more facts are available. Others? That’s for you to decide.
The Nats are filled with AAA filler. They risk being fined and punished for playing games with injuries. Eppler got suspended for fabricating injuries. Toboni would be an idiot to follow his lead.
That was my first thought. New young crew in charge playing fast and loose with roster rules to their advantage. Allows them to get a 40 man spot for the new infielder without cutting anyone and probably doesn't really change much of what Gray will do until Memorial Day.
ON the heals of this wonderful and OHH SO NATS NEWS comes the reporting that Dylan Crews refuses to change anything about his approach to hitting AHHHH nothing like the promise of HIGH VALUE prospects
While this is certainly possible, Pierzinski’s always been a blowhard, and this is a talking heads show that gets its viewership partially through saying controversial things. Give him time.
AAA has a 28 player roster limit. Rochester’s current roster lists 46 players. Some of these are minor league phase rule 5 picks that will surely be assigned lower in the org, but we are going to see a sizable round of minor league releases between now and Friday
Just a thought: guys coming back from TJ are typically on an innings limit in their first season back. Most are shut down late in the season, as Strasburg famously (or infamously) was in 2012.
What if this trip to the 60 day DL is the Nats reversing the process? Gray's velocity isn't quite where they'd all like it... What if this shut down is preemptive? Gray comes back in June ready and able to pitch the rest of 2026?
Might be a brilliant move. Or, sadly... It could be a tragic one driven by another injury to a good kid. Hoping it's the former.
Isn’t that usually a symptom that TJ surgery is needed?
Depends on severity or grade of injury
Hoping for the best for his health.
Its kind of a misnomer. A lot of people like to say its the precursor to a UCL tear diagnosis. There really isn't any correlation between the two other than they both are often felt in the forearm and the former is sometimes a misdiagnosis of the later if there isn't any sign of a tear on the MRI. The flexor mass is a group of muscle strands that go all the way down to the wrist. If you hold your hand palm up and move your fingers, you can see them contract in the forearm. They are not attached directly to the UCL. They can be aggravated by throwing fatigue or by gripping the ball too hard. Like a pulled hamstring, the only treatment is rest.
What a bummer
Certainly not great news for JG and the Nats
The Scherzer-Turner trade is turning into a historic debacle. Two hall of fame talents for 4 players who may all be washed from the league within 5 years (Keibert on the clock)
A good reminder that for many reasons, there is no such thing as a pitching prospect.
They were both were very highly rated players. No one knows what the future holds. Turner was leaving anyways, and even the $$$$$ Dodgers let him walk.
Turner was under team control until the end of the following season. You’re supposed to get strong prospects in such circumstances, especially with Scherzer part of the deal.
In general I feel the team blew a possible opportunity to extend Turner before Lindor’s big contract reset the going rate for top shortstops. Turner didn’t have Boris as his agent. Whether this was on Rizzo or the Lerners is unclear, or maybe they were trying to figure out what to about Harper and Rendon first, but the thing is they didn’t really try (according to Turner). It is one of my biggest disappointments with the organization.
Harper left in 2018 because he did not want deferred money from Ted. With the money they saved on Harper, the Nats were able to sign Patrick Corbin and Adam Eaton. Without those two, the Nats don't win the WS Championship. Rendon was not resigned because the Nats decided they could not resign him and Strasburg. It didn't work out for either team, which always stinks, but without hindsight, I would have done the same thing. Rendon wanted out of DC and go to the West Coast. Two and a half years after Harper left, Turner was traded. They did not agree with Turner on his value (neither did the Dodgers). The Nats did not just want to let him walk, so he was traded at the trade deadline in 2021 before he became a free agent at the end of 2022. He only had one full season left before hitting free agency.
None of that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a blunder not to at least make a serious effort to extend Turner when it was clear early on that he was an extraordinary player. It could have been a more affordable contract back then. What decision the Dodgers made later, after the cost was much higher, is irrelevant. Btw, he still is impressive as an older player.
Oh no question he is still impactful even though he turns 33 in June. And good for him as he has another 7 years on his contract until he is 40.
They did get the Dodgers #1 and #2 prospects for 2 months of Scherzer and Trea. That’s pretty good. Unfortunately it hasn’t worked out. But hindsight is 20/20. I agree 100% they missed the boat by not signing Trea before Lindor reset the SS market.
GMs of course are ultimately judged on results, but process is what matters. Most prospects don't pan out. Players get injured. It doesn't mean the moves were bad moves.
I agree with you that process is what matters, but the fact is that the player development regime in place in the Rizzo era failed to turn these highly regarded prospects into even modestly productive players. That is an unequivocal failure of process.
Neither player LA got stayed long with them, which is probably why the return was tepid. Sadly, the performance (Ruiz) and health (Gray) has been far less than most in baseball thought it would be.
I think it’s a failure of evaluation and bad luck more than a poor process - that said, the player development process of Rizzo’s time was extremely poor.
That's it the end of the career of Josiah Gray and the last nail in the coffin of the bust of the trade of Max and Trea
Not really.
He is a stand up guy, and has been almost an ambassador the team in charity work. I'm very sad to see this news.
Any chance this is just an option to keep the 40 spot open? Bring him in slowly but not another major setback?
This is a question that I hope Mark follows up on. Is this really a new injury?
You honestly think they would have let him pitch in spring training knowing he had a strain?
Not at all. MLB teams manipulate the IL all the time to retain optionality. I'm just asking if this is a new, significant injury or a "phantom IL" situation. Until we get new quotes on this, it's an open question.
What? You think they would ramp him up during spring training then shut him down for at least two months and then have him spend another two months getting back to throw the final month of a season. That's worthy of Seeburg's conspiracy nuttiness. You do have to submit documentation to MLB for injuries not to mention Gray would have to be an idiot to go along with this plan.
Name the last P to land on the 60 with no injury.
No conspiracy. Just asking reasonable questions that are unanswered until we get more quotes on this from management/Josiah, which I hope mark will report on.
I think we need to give Toboni and crew the benefit of the doubt for now. Reasonable suspicion and skepticism is ok, accusations devoid of evidence are a little less ok for me.
I hope is injury isn’t serious, because the other side of this coin is that it is worse than what we’ve been told and his career may be in jeopardy. But’s that’s just unhealthy speculation on my part right now.
Overall, I think I need to reserve judgment until more facts are available. Others? That’s for you to decide.
The Nats are filled with AAA filler. They risk being fined and punished for playing games with injuries. Eppler got suspended for fabricating injuries. Toboni would be an idiot to follow his lead.
That was my first thought. New young crew in charge playing fast and loose with roster rules to their advantage. Allows them to get a 40 man spot for the new infielder without cutting anyone and probably doesn't really change much of what Gray will do until Memorial Day.
Also hoping that's what it is tbh. Would be awful for Josiah if its a bad injury. Couldn't imagine whatvit would take to start another rehab
That Trea Turner/ Max Scherzer trade looking worse and worse
Not really.
That really stinks! I feel for the guy! Hope he can get right somehow.
Oh, me, too. Life is just so unfair at times.
This is such a bummer (unless it isn’t a new injury and they are playing 40 man games)
Great human being. They should almost certainly convert him to a pure reliever (like they did with Cole Henry) now.
ON the heals of this wonderful and OHH SO NATS NEWS comes the reporting that Dylan Crews refuses to change anything about his approach to hitting AHHHH nothing like the promise of HIGH VALUE prospects
Reports from where?
https://x.com/FoulTerritoryTV/status/2036148473477619960?s=20
While this is certainly possible, Pierzinski’s always been a blowhard, and this is a talking heads show that gets its viewership partially through saying controversial things. Give him time.
Totally!
Here’s Crews’ interview by Grant & Danny . Judge for yourself:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nationals-of-dylan-crews-joins-grant-and-danny/id793481078?i=1000755840961
I would hardly call that “reporting.” It’s commentary at best.
Would not classify this source as worthy as "take it to the bank"
can I "take it to the bathroom?"
For the love of God get this man an MRI to make sure it's not more than a flexor strain. Don't mess around with injuries like the previous regime did.
Rochester rotation now Parker, Alvarez, Cornelio, Eder, Perales I presume. A strong group for AAA, still.
Season for them starts Friday.
We can’t catch a break anywhere
Something to watch:
AAA has a 28 player roster limit. Rochester’s current roster lists 46 players. Some of these are minor league phase rule 5 picks that will surely be assigned lower in the org, but we are going to see a sizable round of minor league releases between now and Friday
https://www.milb.com/rochester/roster
Just a thought: guys coming back from TJ are typically on an innings limit in their first season back. Most are shut down late in the season, as Strasburg famously (or infamously) was in 2012.
What if this trip to the 60 day DL is the Nats reversing the process? Gray's velocity isn't quite where they'd all like it... What if this shut down is preemptive? Gray comes back in June ready and able to pitch the rest of 2026?
Might be a brilliant move. Or, sadly... It could be a tragic one driven by another injury to a good kid. Hoping it's the former.